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Here the dealer has a higher value hand than the player but the game is scored as a push, instead of a lose. We should research the rules of ...
Everyone knows about blackjack card counting.. This means playing at a game where you can see the dealer's hole card as it is dealt.
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Like collusion partnerships in poker, playing the exposed hole-card at blackjack is considered cheating in the majority of land-based gaming ...
I haven't been a player who has often gotten a peek at the hole card. But I'm curious about it for those who routinely are able to do this. What do ...

hole card blackjack My blackjack app ends the hand after the player busts, and the dealer's cards are discarded without showing the hole card.
Having never busted in a casino due to my paralyzing fear of table gamesI don't have any first hand experience with this.
My blackjack app ends the hand after the player busts, and the dealer's cards are discarded without showing the hole card.
Having never busted in a casino due to my paralyzing fear of table gamesI don't have any first hand experience with this.
It works that way in the casinos, too.
The dealer also has a little mirror inside the table for when the dealer shows Ace.
Then and only thenthe dealer will offer insurance and check the hole card via the mirror.
After the insurance bets are made or notthe dealer will end the current hand immediately if the hole card had value 10 by flipping it up and showing the blackjack.
Otherwise, you know it's not a 10 and bet accordingly.
I've seen a dealer get rebuked by the pit boss for checking the hole card when the dealer wasn't showing an ace.
I imagine it helps cut down on collusion between dealers and players.
That is correct, if you're the only player at the table of course.
If you bust the hand is over, plain and simple.
IIRC, most of the time in Vegas, playing from a shoe, the dealer will flip over his hole card before sweeping up all the cards and stacking them in the discard pile.
Not that it makes any difference.
Once you go bust, the hand is over for you.
The only difference it would make is that if you're counting cards, seeing the dealer's hole card gives you a little extra information.
Can you ask the dealer to show you the hole card?
Will he if you ask?
ETA: After you've busted, of course.
The dealer also has a little mirror inside the table for when the dealer shows Ace.
Then and only thenthe dealer will offer insurance and check the hole card via the mirror.
After the insurance bets are made or notthe dealer will end the current hand immediately if the hole card had value 10 by flipping it up and showing the blackjack.
Otherwise, you know it's not a 10 and bet accordingly.
Which is wrong in the sequence as described, otherwise, insurance would be a joke instead a bad-odds bet.
Can you ask the dealer to show you the hole card?
Will he if you ask?
Then when it's his turn for a question, it will be, could you please leave?
To clarify for the non-veteran gamblers, Meeko means that asking to see the hole card would be very suspicious given that, as Chronos said, the only reason to do so would be to help you count cards, which could get you thrown out if you were good at it.
To clarify for the non-veteran gamblers, Meeko means that asking to see the hole card would be very suspicious given that, as Chronos said, the only reason to do so would be to help you count cards, which could get you thrown out if you were good at it.
On the other hand, I understand that casinos love players who are trying to count cards and are bad at it, and in this situation, absent evidence to the contrary, I'd be prepared to believe that the player asking is bad at everything.
Goals and resolutions our particular specialty - also sharing commiseration and triumphs.
Which is wrong in the sequence as described, otherwise, insurance would be a joke instead a bad-odds bet.
Isn't that what I said?
Or what it confusingly written?
During the 20th century I played quite a bit of Blackjack in Nevada and can report that, with one class of exception, every card except initial burns and final residue was surfaced, however briefly, for inspection by all.
If all hands are settled the dealer's hole card is irrelevant, but it is still flipped and visible momentarily.
The exception is that some casinos would, very rarely, "deal down" if they had identified a card counter playing at the table.
I recall the Sands in Las Vegas doing this, but IIRC there read more have been 1 or 2 other casinos that I noticed doing this.
Even in face-down games, normally every card is eventually exposed.
When "dealing down" irrelevant cards are not exposed including some possible player errors.
Normally these cards need to be inspected to see if player forgot to declare Blackjack, but that is not done when "dealing down.
Obviously the card still needs to be shown when player doubled with hard-12 or higher.
Normally the dealer will inspect and check whether player miscounted.
Obviously "dealing down" was the signal I should leave the casino but, perversely, I often continued to play to watch reaction of dealers and players.
It was rare that players would comment on this unusual protocol, even though the shift was dramatic especially since Sands normally dealt face-up.
During the 20th century I played quite a bit of Blackjack in Nevada and can report that, with one class of exception, every card except initial burns and final residue was surfaced, however briefly, for inspection by all.
If all hands are settled the dealer's hole card is irrelevant, but it is still flipped and visible momentarily.
The exception is that some casinos would, very rarely, "deal down" if they had identified a card counter playing at the table.
I recall the Sands in Las Vegas doing this, but IIRC there may have been 1 or 2 other casinos that I noticed doing this.
Even in face-down games, normally every card is eventually exposed.
When "dealing down" irrelevant cards are not exposed including some possible player errors.
Normally these cards need to be inspected to see if player forgot to declare Blackjack, but that is not done when "dealing down.
Obviously the card still needs to be shown when player doubled with hard-12 or higher.
Normally the dealer will inspect and check whether player miscounted.
Obviously "dealing down" was the signal I should leave the casino but, perversely, I often continued to play to watch reaction of dealers and players.
It was rare that players would comment on this unusual protocol, even though the shift was dramatic especially since Sands normally dealt face-up.
I've played at a dealt-down table, and I disagree that all player cards stay down when the dealer turns up Blackjack, because that's a push for the player who also got blackjack, and so far as I know there's no requirement for a player to declare his blackjack in that case.
When the dealer shows ace a player can ask for an even money payout on his own blackjack, but he doesn't have to -- and, indeed, he shouldn't.
I have played thousands of hours of blackjack in the last 20 years.
In almost all casinos I have been to, in Nevada, on reservations, and in Europe, the dealer shows the hole card after you bust.
It's not just for card counters, it's human nature or at least for gamblers to want to know if they should have taken that last hit.
We're relieved to see that the dealer really did have a 20 so it was the "right thing to do" to hit our 13, even though we busted.
I've played at a dealt-down table, and I disagree that all player cards stay down when the dealer turns up Blackjack, because that's a push for the player who also got blackjack, and so far as I know there's no requirement for a player to declare his blackjack in that case.
When the dealer shows ace a player can ask for an even money payout on his own blackjack, but he doesn't have to -- and, indeed, he shouldn't.
I realize this is here a sore subject between you and me, but you did not read or comprehend my post!
As I tried to explain, there is a normal way to deal face-down and in that normal way every single card is eventually exposed briefly in some cases, but long enough for an alert person with ordinary eyesight to read it.
What I called "dealing hole card blackjack which is a term I heard muttered between pit boss and dealer on more than one occasion was a very rare hole card blackjack that is the procedure I described in which "irrelevant" cards are not exposed.
Even though as you point out -- and I already mentioned -- this will cost the player money in some cases where he has erred or violated procedure.
If the dealer is friendly and having a good time, not only will they linger after flipping their hole card, they'll point to the first card dealt for the next hand as what you would have gotten had you taken the hit.
What I called "dealing down" which is a term I heard muttered between pit boss and dealer on more than one occasion was a very rare procedure: that is the procedure I described in which "irrelevant" cards are not exposed.
In case this still isn't clear, the very rare procedure was only used when a card counter was playing.
Someone who played "thousands of hours" might never see it especially if their own card counting went undetected!
This "dealing down" is one of several different methods casinos have applied to thwart card counters.
Those who think all casinos automatically bar all counters are misinformed.
And yes, he has used the same procedure in several casinos over the years.
And yes, he has used the same procedure in several casinos over the years.
My period hole card blackjack highest activity was the very late 1970's and that's probably when I witnessed this.
I played a little in the 1980's but almost not at all since 1990 or so.
Even ignoring the losses in my mental acuity, my eyesight monocular diplopia in both eyes may prevent me from playing these days.
Circa 1979, believe it or don't, I could sit near the bar in Las Vegas Club and count the shoes at three different tables several yards away by observing them in an overhead mirror!
Lately I sometimes mistake a 1 for a 2 on the dice when playing backgammon with my ten-year old son.
I suppose I could get laser surgery and attempt a return to the Blackjack tables in my late middle age.
Instead, I'm happy to just smell the roses and engage in vicious arguments delightful repartee at SDMB.
Sounds like our paths have probably crossed a few times.
I found the same thing with the mirrors at the Nevada Palace — could count down three tables from most anywhere near the pit.
Nevada Palace is also where the casino consultant I was thinking of got his start, but not until 1981 or 82, so yeah, that procedure was just part of the general counting paranoia of those days; didn't realize you were going back that far.
I worked in the business for a long time after it got too hard to find a place that would let me play blackjack — switched to poker full time after closing down the Sands and then the Aladdin, then switched to online poker and left Las Vegas in 1998 partly because my well past middle aged eyes were having trouble distinguishing clubs from spades.
Ahh, those were the days.
The dealer also has a little mirror inside the table for when the dealer shows Ace.
Then and only thenthe dealer will offer insurance and check the hole card via the mirror.
Is insurance not offered when the dealer shows a non-Ace face card?
He could still have Blackjack by having an Ace in the hole.
Does he just not offer insurance but still check the mirror and end the hand if the hole card is an Ace?
I'm genuinely curious and it's been years since I've been in a casino.
It seems unfair that the dealer could be sitting there with Blackjack the whole time while the players could go on to split and double-down with no chance of winning.
Is insurance not offered when the dealer shows a non-Ace face card?
He could still have Blackjack by having an Ace in the hole.
Does he just not offer insurance but still check the mirror and end the hand if the hole card is an Ace?
I'm genuinely curious and it's been years since I've been in a casino.
It seems unfair that the dealer could be sitting there with Blackjack the whole time while the players could go on to split and double-down with no chance of winning.
Yes, the dealer checks when he has a 10 showing, but does not offer insurance.
If he has an Ace, the hand is over.
I almost never played single-deck.
For one thing, my face was well known.
Sitting down in a Reno casino I'd not been in for years, floorwoman immediately came over and told dealer to shuffle after betting rules progressive blackjack hand!
I was in it for fun as well as money and tried a few foreign casinos.
Circa 1984 in Manila's largest casino, I walked around the large circular Blackjack pit, counting each of the eight six-shoe games in progress.
Tables could be dropped out when their counts went quite bad.
The game was so excruciatingly slow that when I'd return to table 1, after visiting tables 2 to 8, the problem wasn't that I'd missed plays, but that play hadn't advanced!
Hits were dealt face down and players would squeeeeze them into view slowly.
The tables at that Manila casino were full, so when an opportunity presented I'd have to bet on another player's hand, betting more than him so I'd get to call the play.
This was nerve-wracking since the players would groan if I did something nonstandard like hitting 15 when dealer had 7 showing!
I realize this is becoming a sore subject between you and me, but you did not read or comprehend my post!
As I tried to explain, there is a normal way to deal face-down and in that normal way every single card is eventually exposed briefly in some cases, but long enough for an alert person with ordinary eyesight to read it.
What I called "dealing down" which is a term I heard muttered between pit boss and dealer on more than one occasion was a very rare procedure: that is the procedure I described in which "irrelevant" cards are not exposed.
Even though as you point out -- and I already mentioned -- this will cost the player money in some cases where he has erred or violated procedure.
No, no -- I read it.
I even repeated it: ".
I've played at a dealt-down table.
Casinos in Nevada cannot invent their own games and start using them.
Every game must be approved by the Nevada Gaming Commission before being offered to players.
I'm claiming that when I played deal-down blackjack, the player's cards were exposed if he stood on a hand, and only mucked if he busted.
And I'm claiming there's no discretion for the casino to do otherwise, unless there's an approved variant of blackjack that allows it.
And I'm claiming there isn't.
Now, I may be mistaken on that last point, I admit, but I am not misunderstanding or failing to read your post.
Yes, the dealer checks when he has a 10 showing, but does not offer insurance.
If he has an Ace, the hand is over.
I'm just click for source curious and it's been years since I've been in a casino.
It seems unfair that the dealer could be sitting there with Blackjack the whole time while the players could go on to split and double-down with no chance of winning.
And if he doesn't have a mirror or secure way of checking, when the hand ends with his blackjack, the house does not collect any double-down or split bets, just the original wagers.
Now, I may be mistaken on that last point, I admit, but I am not misunderstanding or failing to read your post.
No, no -- I read it.
I even repeated it: ".
I've played at a dealt-down table.
Now, I may be mistaken on that last point, I admit, but I am not misunderstanding or failing to read your post.
My post discussed neither how blackjack should be dealt nor how it might be dealt nor how it might not have been dealt nor how the Gaming Commission required it to be dealt.
Instead I described how it actually was dealt just click for source the Sands Hotel in Las Vegas whenever I sat down circa 1979 and the pit boss came over and whispered to the dealer.
Do you claim my memory is faulty?
What do online casinos do to limit the edge that players would gain from counting cards?
As I understand it most online blackjack games are the equivalent of a single-deck game where the deck is shuffled after each hand.
No reason not to do it this way if the "shuffle" takes no time at all.
My post discussed neither how blackjack should be dealt nor how it might be dealt nor how it might not have been dealt nor how the Gaming Commission required it to be dealt.
Instead I described how it actually was dealt at the Sands Hotel in Las Vegas whenever I sat down circa 1979 and the pit boss came over and whispered to the dealer.
Do you claim my memory is faulty?
I was simply pointing out that whatever those casinos did was extra-legal.
It was not an established and approved procedure.
It was an unsanctioned procedure.
I'm sure it happened, especially given that at that time, casinos were not strongly held to the gaming rules.
I'm just saying it wasn't kosher, not that it didn't happen.
Casinos in Nevada cannot invent their own games and start using them.
Every game must be approved by the Nevada Gaming Commission before being offered to players.
I'm claiming that when I played deal-down blackjack, the player's cards were exposed if he stood on a hand, and only mucked if he busted.
And I'm claiming there's no discretion for the casino to do otherwise, unless there's an approved variant of blackjack that allows it.
And I'm claiming there isn't.
Now, I may be mistaken on that last point, I admit, but I am not misunderstanding or failing to read your post.
Once the game is approved any casino is permitted to use it, typically with some sort of fee arrangement with the inventor.
The owner of the patent will provide casinos with a basic outline of dealing procedures but each casino manager will likely have some preferred method of card or chip handling or shuffle procedure that introduces small changes.
Dealing procedures are not required to be submitted to or approved by the gaming commission.
I have written the dealing procedures for BJ, Craps, Pai Gow, and Pai Gow Poker for a few different casinos.
I have also written the game description and mathematical analysis of a few games that were submitted to NGC.
Dealing procedures and applications for new games are completely different animals.
Basic dealing procedures are fairly well standardized and dealers have little trouble moving from casino to casino but each place will have a few minor differences that change with each casino manager, and when some sort of unusual play is taking place those procedures are often changed on the fly, usually just for the duration of that particular play — things like burning some extra cards, changing the shuffle, not exposing some cards that are typically exposed, etc.
There is nothing illegal, extra-legal, or unkosher about those procedures so long as they do not change the nature of the game.
Specifically regarding the standard procedure for picking up the cards mentioned in the OP: With only one player and that player busts -- the dealer will either take the player's chips with his left hand and dump them in the rack and then pick up the player's cards with his right hand OR first pick up the player's cards with his right hand and use those cards to scoop up the chips and dump them in the rack.
Then, with the player's cards held in the right hand, thumb and index finger on top with the other fingers curled underneath, he will move those cards close to the dealer's cards, use his thumb and index finger to pull the upcard off the hole card and use it the upcard to flip the hole card face up, then scoop up the hole card and place the whole stack face down into the discard box.
Cards are picked up in a specific order so it easy to run the cards back out if the player should dispute the hand.
Some casinos might have the dealers pick up all the players' hand first, then set those cards on top of the dealer's cards rather than using them to scoop up the dealer's cards; this results in the dealer's hand being on top of the discard stack and is preferred by some casino managers, but it is the exception, not the standard method.
So, in general, yes, the dealer's hole card does typically get exposed briefly when a single player busts, but it is not mandatory, and that procedure can be changed at the will or whim of the supervisor of the game since it does not alter the basic nature of the game.
You are correct that new games must be approved by the NGC before they are put on the casino floor; that process is done by the originator of the game.
Once the game is approved any casino is permitted to use it, typically with some sort of fee arrangement with the inventor.
The owner of the patent will provide casinos with a basic outline of dealing procedures but each casino manager will likely have some preferred method of card or chip handling or shuffle procedure that card counting blackjack practice small changes.
So, in general, yes, the dealer's hole card does typically get exposed briefly when a single player busts, but it is not mandatory, and that procedure can be changed at the will or whim of the supervisor of the game since it does not alter the basic nature of the game.
Apart from your own experience, do you have some cite for the proposition that the kind of dealing change discussed here is considered to not affect the basic nature of the game?
A player with blackjack facing a dealer with blackjack is a push.
Yet under the system septimus described, that player loses his table bet the moment the dealer discovers her blackjack.
This is an alteration of the basic nature of the game.
So I'm curious to read whatever authority or citation you can provide to help me understand this seeming contradiction.
Other than four years as a full time professional blackjack player, 22 years working in Las Vegas casinos as a dealer and in casino management in positions such as Pit Manager and Director of Table Games and as Surveillance Supervisor, having written both dealing procedures and applications for new games, numerous encounters with Gaming Agents both in the casino and in court during cheating hearings, and taking the Gaming Law course at UNLV taught by the author of the text book, can knock out toernooi pokerstars can, I have encountered no evidence that your supposed regulation exists.
In the real world, a player with a blackjack turns it up.
Other than four years as a full time professional blackjack player, 22 years working in Las Vegas casinos as a dealer and in casino management in positions such as Pit Manager and Director of Table Games and as Surveillance Supervisor, having written both dealing procedures and applications for new games, numerous encounters with Gaming Agents both in the casino and in court during cheating hearings, and taking the Gaming Law course at UNLV taught by the author of the text book, no, I have encountered no evidence that your supposed regulation exists.
In the real world, a player with a blackjack turns it up.
I haven't proposed the existence of a different regulation.
I've proposed that under the language you quoted -- changing the basic nature of the game -- the procedure described above would not be permitted.
So far, your post is your cite.
You sound authoritative, to be sure.
But your post comes down to, "I know a lot, so trust me.
I'm afraid I confused myself somewhat describing that Sands "dealing down" procedure.
Unlike more recent procedures where at least some casinos don't expose Dealer blackjack until the end of a hand blackjack was turned up right away, so my comment didn't apply.
However the situation I conflated that with was as bad in terms of protecting players: IIRC and I think I am recalling correctly nowwhen the dealer finished with a total of 21 exactly using three cards or more, he collected the bet and face-down cards from each player who had stood pat on two cards "knowing" hole card blackjack couldn't have 21.
Again, this applies only in that rarely used "dealing down" procedure.
Sorry for the confusion.
I'm afraid I confused myself somewhat describing that Sands "dealing down" procedure.
Unlike more recent procedures where at least some casinos don't expose Dealer blackjack until the end of a hand blackjack was turned up right away, so my comment didn't apply.
However the situation I conflated that with was as bad in terms of protecting players: IIRC and I think I am recalling correctly nowwhen the dealer finished with a total of 21 exactly using three cards or more, he collected the bet and face-down cards from each player who had stood pat on two cards "knowing" they couldn't have 21.
Again, this applies only in that rarely used "dealing down" procedure.
Sorry for the confusion.
I've seen something similar done - in fact, at the Sands, before they blew it up.
Your revision makes all the sense in the world, because there's a definitive choice the player makes.
In other words, what you described before had the player losing his table wager with potentially no move at all on his part.
What you describe now is the player taking the initiative to stand pat, by hand signal or placing his wager on his cards.
THAT covers the casino and the player.
I can't say I ever was a professional, but I have spent thousands of hours at blackjack tables on and off the Strip.
I didn't mean to be rude but your first description didn't make sense to me.
If a table is dealt down, what happens if a player, of his own initiative, turns his cards face-up, or otherwise communicates them to the other players?
As a click to see more and player of more than 30 years I have never seen or heard of a dealer refusing to show his hole card.
In my experience the only card which is not shown is the burn card and some casinos will allow that to be shown as well.
As for the peek the prism or mirror which identifies blackjacksin most situations the dealer only knows whether or not he has a BJ when he peeks.
If there is no BJ the dealer does not know what card he has.
You can tell when link is the case because the 10 value cards and the Aces have a mark on the corner, 2 thru 9 do not.
As for dealing down, in the early days, up until say the advent of Atlantic City gambling, almost all blackjack was dealt by hand and except for the Las Vegas strip there were no shoes.
As casinos became more afraid of counters they instituted measures to protect themselves, hopefully without losing any customers.
At that time all cards were dealt down except shoes and ultimately all cards were exposed before a new hand was dealt.
A player playing 2 or more hands had to play them one at a time, not seeing second or later hands until the first was completed.
At some point it became obvious that allowing players to touch their cards was a needless risk and all cards were dealt face up on shoes and double decks.
I have never seen a blackjack game where cards were not turned over in any situation other than a misdeal.
Indeed with all of the gaming regulation in effect it would probably be illegal to fail to check each hand for a winner.
I am no longer in the business so my current information is scant but variations in rules are a constant, but dealing cards down slows the game down drastically and allows the player to touch the cards, two things that would be extremely unlikely to be approved by any casino as a regular practice.
Even so all cards would almost surely be atlantic city blackjack forums on every hand.
Even in fact where a player breaks and throws his hand at the dealer, the cards would be recovered and placed properly before being set in the discard rack, so the sky surveillance can see everything that is going on.
Sorry, did not realize you were distinguishing between "dealing down" which I have never seen or heard of but do not dispute the occurrence and face down blackjack.
I must agree with Turble however in all respects.
Nevada Gaming Control might suggest changes in a casino's procedures but only https://chicago-lawyer.info/blackjack/motor-city-casino-video-blackjack.html they were a threat to the bankroll not because they could potentially make it more difficult for a player to count.
As far as BJ vs Bj is concerned, if a dealer swept up a player's hand and he claimed to have a BJ for a push, the cards would be run back to see if the claim was accurate and if so his money would be returned.
In most states outside of Nevada the various gaming control authorities require a casino only to deal the games in an approved manner and consistently with the casino's own internal controls.
That is, they cannot, in my experience, make procedural changes on the fly as they may in Nevada.
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Casino Blackjack Insurance with Unrevealed Hole Card Explanation Part 02


384 385 386 387 388

Exposed hole card blackjack basic strategy chart. The above chart should NOT be confused with Double Exposure.


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Total 11 comments.